IMF: How to generate inclusion in an (already) diverse workplace

Rewilding Work with Paul Miller Episode 3: IMF: How to generate inclusion in an (already) diverse workplace 

[00:00:24.490] – Paul Miller 

Welcome to Rewilding Work. I’m Paul Miller, and in my day job I’m Chief Creative Officer of the Digital Workplace Group. I spend a lot of time talking to senior change-makers inside hundreds of mostly large organizations like Adobe, Ikea, Coca-Cola about their challenges and their visions of creating a more engaging, fulfilling and healthier ways of working for often hundreds of thousands of people. In these Rewilding Work episodes, I talk to senior leaders who are transforming the world of work in their companies and public organizations. The series is based on the book Nature of Work: The new story of work for a living age, which I co-authored with Shimrit Janes. Its core idea is that you’re not an organization, you’re an organism. You’re not a machine. You’re a living system, more like a forest than a factory. So what does this mean in practice? Well, we hear examples and stories of what key senior leaders are doing to bring the nature of work to life in their company. And if they can do it, then you can do it too. Today I talked to Petra de Bruxelles. Petra is the Diversity and Inclusion Advisor from the International Monetary Fund. The IMF. 

[00:01:41.890] – Paul Miller 

And after the interview, I’m joined in the studio by my special guests, Nicola Millard from BT and Shimrit Janes from DWG to reflect on what we’ve heard. Now for Petra. 

[00:02:01.930] – Paul Miller 

Let’s start off. How did you come to be responsible for diversity, equity and inclusion at the IMF? And is there a personal story behind this for you? 

[00:02:12.330] – Petra de Bruxelles 

Well, thanks Paul, for inviting me to this chat of the Rewilding Work discussion series and I’m thrilled to be here. If I could just first, before we get into answering the questions, if I could just first emphasize that the views I’m expressing during the session are mine and should not be attributed to the International Monetary Fund, its Executive Direct Board, or its management. But yes, I think to answer your question, definitely there is a personal story. My life experiences since childhood, I think, have really led to me having this type of role. I moved with my family from a very young age and I’ve lived in countries spanning Europe, North America, the Far East. So I have had to learn to adapt, but also obviously learn different languages, adapt to different cultures, but also try to keep my individuality in all of that. And so I think that really that upbringing led me to the work environments which I’ve been working in international organizations or pan-European organizations. I think that that has been really a journey that has set me up for working in these organizations. Now, on top of that, I think that I first became aware of diversity when I started working for a European financial entity about 25 years ago. 

[00:03:33.280] – Petra de Bruxelles 

And I was in recruitment at the time, and I found it fascinating that there was a lack of women applying for positions in this bank where I was working and also that we tended to get a glut of applications from certain countries and not from others. And so I think that’s where my interest in what’s going on here, why are we getting different types of applications? Was really piqued. And then I started talking to people through interviews, but also as a business partner, I started talking to people about their experiences. And I think that’s where I became a lot more aware about the inclusion part of the D E and I work. And that really led me to thinking this is something I’d like to invest more time in. And in 2014, it just so happens that I was looking for a new challenge, wanted to stay in the organization where I was working. But the HR department was going through a huge reorganization and I went to my boss and I said, listen, I’m looking for something new and I think that we need to do work on attracting more diverse candidates. Now, my intention behind that was to just really work on the branding side of things. 

[00:04:47.450] – Petra de Bruxelles 

But I was then asked to develop a D and I strategy. And so that’s where I really, really got into the nitty gritty and the hard work of D E and I at the time. And then in terms of the IMF, I saw the role and I thought it would be interesting and I decided to put myself forward and here I am. 

[00:05:10.050] – Paul Miller 

That’s great. And it’s always fascinating to I mean, I’ve spoken to several people who are involved in the D E and I field and the evolution of this still pretty new area and it’s fascinating to hear the stories. So the IMF and I’ve been fortunate to visit a few times and one of the things I always love is it’s an intrinsically multicultural and global organization. But I know that you’ve been aware in the IMF of what you call underrepresented regions. So what does that mean? Because when I am in the IMF and maybe I’m unaware of what I’m not seeing, what does that mean, the underrepresented regions for you? 

[00:05:54.340] – Petra de Bruxelles 

Right. So indeed, I mean, we, we are extremely diverse. You know, we, we represent 190 member countries and in fact from the beginning so in what we call our Articles of Agreement which are basically the IMF’s charter and operating setting out our mission but also our operating standards, there is clear reference in those Articles of Agreement that we need to pay regard to the importance of recruiting personnel. It was called at the time. But if you like, employees on as wide a geographical basis as possible so that our member countries were represented. Now when a country joins the fund or the IMF, they contribute money. So this is where we get our funding from, if you like. And so they pay in a certain amount of capital or they reserve a certain amount of capital for the fund’s use. And that’s called a quota share. This is used for both in terms of identifying or defining their contribution, but also their voting rights within the organization. And so those are one input that we use. This quota share is one input that we use to look at whether we have fair representation. But the other thing that we look at is also what we call the intensity of the work that we do. 

[00:07:16.650] – Petra de Bruxelles 

So how much work do we do in a particular group of countries, which we call regions? And so by looking combining both of those, we then come up with a percentage. And then we look at our data, and we see whether the percentage of employees from a certain region we have Europe, Western Hemisphere, East Asia, MENA, Middle East, North Africa, sub-Saharan Africa. And we look at whether the representation of employees from that region is roughly similar to the quota share. Plus the intensity of the business that we do. The more important for us is actually the intensity of business that we do. So we have set these regions, and we have three underrepresented regions at the moment. One is sub-Saharan Africa, because that’s where we do a lot of our business. It’s a developing continent. The other is Middle East and North Africa. And the other one is East Asia, although for East Asia, we are making steady progress. 

[00:08:22.360] – Paul Miller 

Okay, how does your sponsorship program work? Because it sounds like that’s been very carefully thought through, which is kind of what I would expect from the IMF. But what does that mean? 

[00:08:34.060] – Petra de Bruxelles 

Well, thanks for the question. The compliment. The sponsorship program is actually relatively new. We’re in a pilot phase at the moment, and we actually set it up following feedback that we received from colleagues from these underrepresented regions where they felt that they didn’t have the same networks, the same role models, and access to developmental or growth assignments that others in the organization might have. So in response to that, we looked at different options. We looked at coaching, we looked at mentoring. But both of those types of things either exist or have been tried in the Fund before. So we wanted to come up with something new. And so we developed the sponsorship program, where we’ve paired some of our most senior leaders who actually volunteered to act as sponsors, which was fantastic, with employees who have been evaluated as being solid performers and who aspire to become future leaders in the organization. So we provided training for both groups, particularly on the difference between mentoring, coaching, and sponsoring, just to make sure that they were all starting from, if you like, the same page and the same basis of understanding. And then we’ve held training sessions also, or meetings with both groups to sort of answer their questions, but also to provide them more input. 

[00:10:03.420] – Petra de Bruxelles 

So for what we call those who are being sponsored, the participants, we’ve had speakers come in who talk to them about their sphere of influence, career counseling and other topics. And I’m pleased to say that we’ve now reached the one year mark of this sponsorship, the pilot program, the initial pilot program. And the feedback has been very positive. So some of the sponsors have even said that they feel that it’s made them more inclusive and actually better managers and leaders themselves. So they’ve actually learnt themselves, they’ve improved their leadership skills. And for the participants or those who are being sponsored, although we did say that the ultimate aim is not necessarily to get a promotion, we have heard that some of the participants that have been in this initial pilot, they have been promoted. And one of the positive aspects, if you like, that came up during their interviews, was the knowledge that they’d gained through the sponsorship program. So it seems to be working. Now it’s been so successful and we had so many people interested that we’re actually launching what we’re calling a beta pilot in the coming months. And then the intention is to roll it out to the whole Fund because obviously we don’t want to be exclusive, which the program is in some ways at the moment. We’ll roll that out hopefully in 2024 or 2025. 

[00:11:38.830] – Paul Miller 

That sounds great. You talked a bit about the benefits that some of the sponsors have found from this or the things that they’ve learned. I mean, how do what I’ll call the the better represented groups in the IMF gain from a broader approach to diversity? And do you have any specific examples of the benefits? 

[00:11:57.670] – Petra de Bruxelles 

Yeah, well, let me first say I think that we actually gain those of us who are in the, as you call them, well represented groups. And I have to count myself amongst those. Right. I would argue that we actually gain more from an inclusive and equitable work environment rather than diversity itself, because you can have diversity. And by its nature, as you mentioned, Paul, the IMF is diverse. But if we’re not inclusive and our employees don’t have a sense of belonging and that they’re being treated equitably, then the diversity doesn’t work, right? So I think it’s more important that we focus on the inclusion and the equitable work environment. But to answer your question more concretely, and this is not necessarily specific to the IMF, I think it’s more general. And from my overall experience with D and I, I think one of some of the examples that I can give are when you make accommodations for people with disabilities, for example, think just of something simple like a push button or a motion sensor door opener. Now, a lot of organizations or companies put those in place for people who are using wheelchairs, but they can actually be beneficial to everyone because if you’ve broken your leg and you’re temporarily using crutches, it also helps you to open the doors, et cetera. 

[00:13:22.390] – Petra de Bruxelles 

If you’re carrying a heavy load of documents or whatever, you can just tap the button and the door opens for you, you’re not having to struggle with the potential of losing the documents falling or whatever. Equally, our catering staff who have to provide food and things, they have trolleys, so they can just open the door with a button or by flashing. So I think it’s really, from my perspective, if you have what I would call an accessible and inclusive environment for all, everybody benefits from it. We are in an international organization. Not everybody has English as their mother’s tongue. So we’ve actually introduced captioning for all of our meetings. And that helps not only those who are hard of hearing, but also those who perhaps I speak quite quickly, others have very difficult accents. It helps those who are not native English speakers to follow the conversation more easily as well. Yeah. 

[00:14:29.670] – Paul Miller 

Rewilding Work grew out of the book that Shimrit Janes and I wrote called Nature of Work, which I know you’re familiar with. And it strikes me that an inclusive, more equitable organization, as you called it, is an intrinsically healthier organization that as you say, it’s almost a way of better listening to the reality of the organization. And that’s what kind of comes across to me. 

[00:14:58.530] – Paul Miller 

I really like what you said about the fact that diversity is one aspect of it, but it’s the equity, the inclusion. And I know at LinkedIn they talk about belonging, creating a sense of belonging in the organization. So my final question to you is we are in a hybrid working environment and I know that the IMF is using adopting that at the moment. Has that been better or worse from a D  E and I point of view, would you say? 

[00:15:32.570] – Petra de Bruxelles 

Well, I would hope to say that it’s better, but I think it’s a tough question for us to answer at the moment because we’ve only been in hybrid for about six months now. We have just conducted a survey and I’m eagerly awaiting those results. I should receive them, unfortunately. I was hoping to have them for today, but they’ve not come through yet. But we certainly know from colleagues and from listening to colleagues that they really appreciate the flexibility. Now, there are concerns around proximity bias. Is my manager going to evaluate the work that I’m doing based on the deliverables and my performance or are they going to evaluate it because they see me in the office? And one of the mitigating actions that we’ve put in there is to say to managers, listen, you have to role model the hybrid working so you shouldn’t be in the office every day. And when you are doing your hybrid working, make sure that you actually come in on different days so that if there is a pattern of presence, you’re not seeing the same people all the time. We do know that most people prefer to come in on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays that we’ve got from some statistics that we’ve run. 

[00:16:47.010] – Petra de Bruxelles 

But I think that overall, like I said, our employees are certainly appreciating the flexibility. But I’ve also discussed with some of the colleagues with disabilities and other minority groups, and they’ve shared that hybrid working provides them with, first of all, a lot more flexibility, but also that they don’t need necessarily the types of accommodations at home that they would need in the office because they’re already set up at home. And then there are other groups who cite that they feel that they can more easily be themselves while they’re working from home rather than in the office. And this can be for various reasons. Some of it may be related to their sense of that there’s bias in the organization, and every organization has that. So I’m not really revealing anything dramatically negative, but they just feel that they can more easily be themselves. And to be honest, I feel that myself sometimes as well. I mean, I’m wearing a suit today, I’m in the office, but there are days when I think, oh, I really would not like to dress up. And if I’m at home, actually, it’s more accepted that you’re not perhaps so smartly dressed. 

[00:18:04.370] – Paul Miller 

Yeah, I was talking to a colleague yesterday, and I said, are you using the co-working space she usually goes to? And she said, well, not the moment. She said it’s so cold. I just want to be kind of snuggled up, and I don’t want to dress up and have to go to somewhere. And I think it does give us more options, which I think from an inclusion point of view and an equity point of view is positive. But thank you so much for sharing your insights today, Petra. It’s been a pleasure to talk to you, and thanks for coming on. 

[00:18:44.710] – Petra de Bruxelles 

Thanks a lot, Paul. It’s been an absolute pleasure. 

[00:18:53.610] – Paul Miller 

So that was really fascinating to watch. And I’m delighted now to be joined in the studio by our two guests for today. That’s Dr. Nicola Millard, who is a Principal Innovation Partner at BT and also by Shimrit Janes, who is the Director of Knowledge for the Digital Workplace Group and also responsible for the diversity, equity, and inclusion work in DWG. So it’s great to have you both here. And Nicola, can I just start off by asking you, what are your reflections on what Petra was talking about? 

[00:19:33.590] – Dr Nicola Millard 

I think there’s three things that leapt out to me. The first thing I loved was the fact that they recruit their employees to mirror their customers, if you can call the IMF customers customers. But the fact that they’re trying to represent their population as a whole, I think is something that all employers should do. Obviously in IT the big problem at the moment is we don’t have enough women. And given women kind of I think they’re about 51% of the population, they’re about 20% of the IT developer’s population. That’s a real tough task sometimes to just recruit in your customer’s image. So I think that’s the first thing I really kind of pulled out. I think the second thing was really around that whole concept of design. Now, obviously Petra pulled out things like designing doors, but I think it’s more than that sort of material design. Obviously there’s a lot of stuff around inclusion and office design and making sure that offices are accessible, but I think it goes way beyond that to make work accessible. I think we’ve got kind of an exciting time at the moment because I’ve maintained that we have an opportunity to reinvent work and reinvent work for people, for productivity and also the planet. 

[00:20:47.910] – Dr Nicola Millard 

But in terms of the people bit, it really is around how do we generate inclusive design in the workplace, not just in the physical workplace, but across the board and reflecting on a lot of the stuff around the future of work. You have to kind of look at the past as well. The way work is constructed was constructed back in the industrial era when we had factories and nine to five and Monday to Friday made a lot of sense. And actually, if you look at the ways that jobs have been designed, largely it was factory workers that they were designing it for in an era where a lot of women were doing the caring, so they were often staying at home. So that whole nine to five, Monday to Friday kind of made sense when you had a carer to take care of the children at home and the man went to work. When all of us are juggling caring now, it’s a real difficulty to say, well, is that the right pattern? So I think we need to move that mindset from physical inclusion to let’s look at how we make work much more inclusive. 

[00:21:48.120] – Dr Nicola Millard 

Which of course is a subject of hot topic at the moment around getting the over 50s back into the workforce a start. So if we’re going to do that, how do we construct work to make it attractive for the over 50s to come back to work, and who might not want to do Monday to Friday, nine to five, or do long commutes but have incredible knowledge? How do we get that kind of person back into the workforce? By really designing work differently. And then the third thing I loved about what Petra said was really that sort of mentoring and coaching approach where you had the top level leaders mentored by high performers that were maybe lower down in the organization. And I think we’ve seen a lot of that around. Again, it’s back to being aware that you may have one perspective, but other perspectives are available. So how do we actually make sure that people from diverse perspectives, whether that’s at the top or the bottom of the organization, whether that’s carers, different ethnicities, parents, different cultures? That’s the other lovely thing about the IMF. It’s a really multicultural organization. All of that gives a much richer perspective when you’re starting to look at how do you design work and how do you design services that customers want to actually consume as well. So all of that I really loved. 

[00:23:08.110] – Paul Miller 

That’s a great synthesis Nicola. And Shimrit, it struck me, as it always does with the IMF, that it’s a very polished organization and I’m not surprised that they’ve got what I would call a carefully considered approach to diversity, equity and inclusion. But Petra focused more, I thought, on inclusion, which was interesting. What do you think about that emphasis? 

[00:23:36.230] – Shimrit Janes 

It was really interesting listening because I think she did focus on inclusion and equity, but she made a real point to say we’re able to do that because we’re already diverse, we already have diversity. Although she also spotlighted that. There are areas that underrepresented. She mentioned, I think, three different regions where they’re having to put more work into because it’s not reflective of their wider population. So where they lack in diversity, they are focusing. And then once you have that, you then look at, okay, how are we being inclusive? I remember listening to somebody speak from Glassdoor a couple of years ago, I think, who was sharing their framework for DEI within Glassdoor that they had developed. And they said, it’s all well and good having a diverse population with people from all walks of life, however you want to take that, that could be disability, gender, sexuality, class, all sorts, cognitive diversity. But if you don’t have an inclusive culture, people are going to leave, they’re not going to stay, you’re not going to remain diverse. And so what is the culture that you’re creating once you’re inside of the organization so that people feel like they belong? 

[00:24:46.230] – Shimrit Janes 

And so for Petra to be talking about the things that they’re doing inside of IMF to make sure that that diversity is maintained felt absolutely right for them. I think when you look at different organizations that maybe aren’t as diverse, you then need to be looking as well at more deeply. What is our recruitment policy? Are we mitigating for unconscious bias in the way that we’re recruiting? For example, if you’re able to recruit in a diverse way that people are leaving, why is that so? I think that focus on inclusion was really important. It takes all three. That’s why we’re seeing those extra initials being added. So we started with diversity, then we had diversity and inclusion. We now have equity added to that as well because things need to be fair. You look at the gender pay gap, you look at the employment pay gap for disabled people, for example. And that’s why we now talk about equity as well. I think you need to have all three. If you’ve got one where you feel like you’re naturally more focused on just because of the nature of your work, you can also then put a bigger focus on inclusivity. 

[00:25:50.850] – Shimrit Janes 

So I think it made sense for their context. And it’s a good reminder that you need to focus on all three and that kind of fosters that sense of belonging. 

[00:25:59.230] – Paul Miller 

Yeah, it’s definitely a subject, if I can call it that, where I feel like I mainly just listen because I really feel that I’ve found myself, I’m absorbing new information, trying to understand without trying to have very defined sort of opinions in this subject. But it strikes me, Nicola, that this subject of inclusion, that if you feel included, if you feel heard, if you feel valued anywhere, that really makes a difference. And I know that it’s not your particular area, Nicola, within BT, but how would you say BT is as an organization in this area, either compared with the IMF or just in your own experience? 

[00:26:55.490] – Dr Nicola Millard 

I think there’s a few things. So I’m a designer, so I’m going to cover design in a minute. But I think in terms of sort of the stuff that BT has been doing, which is reflected in other organizations that I work with as well, we’ve got things like colleague board, a colleague board. So that’s basically a shadow board, I guess, that we’ve recruited across the organization and they’ve tried to make it very diverse, and they basically advise our main board, and the main board is less diverse, let’s put it that way than that. Colleague board. So I think in terms of sort of getting different voices heard, I think that definitely helps. And actually, BT also has a rich network of networks. So, for example, our able to network comprises everyone from disabilities right the way through to the neurodiverse. And they’re involved in the design bit. And the design bit is what I’m always very interested in, because I think if you’re looking at hybrid working, which I do a lot, it’s quite tempting to sort of say, well, hybrid working. Some of the definitions of the flexibility within hybrid working are actually inflexible flexible, so you must be in three days a week, for example, being a very common one amongst a lot of organizations. 

[00:28:09.530] – Dr Nicola Millard 

My problem there is you end up designing for the average, and I understand that. I used to do a lot on ergonomics, for example, and ergonomics is all about designing for the average. And unfortunately the average, I think, is five foot seven and a half for a start. So I’m five foot three and a half. And the problem then is I don’t fit chairs. I mean, I cannot find a chair that fits me because it’s been designed for the average. And I think then when you’re looking at the complex chairs that you can adjust, you’ve got lots of levers and dials and things that’s very complicated. You’re increasing the complexity by some degree if you suddenly give lots and lots of choices. And I think if that design, that chair design, is almost reflected in the hybrid working that we’re doing at the moment in that it’s very simple to just say, okay, let’s say three days a week in the office, two days a week at home. But then when you start putting the dials and knobs on, it gets a lot more complex. And the trouble is, not everyone wants to work three days a week in the office for many, many reasons. 

[00:29:08.200] – Dr Nicola Millard 

If they’re neurodiverse, all of the stimulation of the office is probably going to destroy productivity. And actually they’re probably better set up at home. If you’ve got disabilities, the commute could be problematic for you, or that simply it’s just the work doesn’t necessarily work within an office scenario. So I think we’ve got this interesting period at the moment of experimentation, which we’re all talking about, but it is really around what levers and dials do we need and how do we make that not so complex that you have a chair that looks like a monstrosity or simply nobody can use that chair. So I think that’s an interesting dilemma, that it’s interesting that sometimes we’re designing for the average and no one is average and it mainly just doesn’t fit anybody at that point. 

[00:29:54.830] – Paul Miller 

Yeah, and Shimrit, large organizations, from the conversations I have, let’s say they’re on a journey in this area of D E and I. From where you’re sitting, how would you say they’re doing? And I don’t really have a kind of clear kind of answer to that question. Are they doing quite well? Is it sort of average? Is it disappointing? Where are we up to? Because the corporate world is definitely trying to change, or at least saying it’s trying to change. 

[00:30:27.100] – Shimrit Janes 

I also just want to empathize with Nicola, I’m five foot three. There’s no such thing as a normal user, is what Lou Downe says in Services  who are we designing for? In terms of your question, Paul, I think first of all, it’s not just large organizations that are trying to do this. Like DWG, we’re quite small and we are focused on this as well. I think the challenge is sometimes just slightly different depending on the size of the organization. I think it’s been a long time coming. There’s been obviously events, particularly in the US, that are tragic. There’s been an increased focus on it here in the UK for various reasons as well. Different countries and regions have their own particular challenges when it comes to DEI that they need to focus on. You can’t take a US approach and drop it into another country, for example. But I think the fact that large organizations are focused on this is fantastic. I don’t want to pass judgment at all on where people are in that journey. We had a research spotlight for our members last year where we were showcasing some work around the inclusive digital workplace that we’ve just published, that I was working on. 

[00:31:40.740] – Shimrit Janes 

And we said in that the boundaries of an organization are permeable. You don’t live in a bubble. Away from society. And so what’s happening inside of organizations is reflecting what’s happening within wider society and kind of the pressures of that and how organizations need to change. And I think as well, there’s a real opportunity for organizations to kind of be the utopia that they want to see externally. If you have organizations saying, this is how we want to see our society and we’re going to show it through our DEI work, there’s a real opportunity there to kind of be a microcosm of society. That said, in quite a few of the DEI practitioners that I follow, particularly on LinkedIn, you’re starting to see real frustration that progress isn’t being made at the speed at which we would really like. And so I think without saying things are as good as they could be or they could be better or things aren’t, we’re disappointed. I think we really need to be comfortable with being uncomfortable in this area. And look at that. You were saying, for example, you’re sitting back and just trying to listen and everybody has a role to play. 

[00:32:52.760] – Shimrit Janes 

And even if that is just sitting back and listening and giving the stage to other people and then taking on your role as an ally and saying, okay, what can I be doing in my role? So I think regardless of the size of your organization, there’s a thing that I’ve kept coming across in the realm of accessibility, which is progress over perfection. I think that needs to be the big message. 

[00:33:18.990] – Paul Miller 

Yeah, and I think we’re probably in the period where there’s a kind of burst of energy, there’s a burst of activity, programs are started, people are appointed, and now it’s kind of the hard yards. It’s staying true to your purpose, to your mission, trying to I think you’re right. I think the world of work has been a kind of engine of social change, is got the capability to be. I mean, we haven’t seen the rise of populism in the world of large organizations. I think a lot of their values are very, acros different organizations, are very similar. Love to talk to you more, but thank you so much for coming on and I think this is all part of rewilding work. I’m sure it is. And thank you Nicola, and thank you Shimrit, for your contributions today. 

[00:34:13.830] – Petra de Bruxelles 

Thank you. 

[00:34:18.850] – Paul Miller 

So here are my three seeds to plant in your organization. Based on the conversations with Petra, with Nicola and with Shimrit, just to kind of say before I get into the three seeds to plant, I’m really in listening mode with diversity, equity and inclusion and have been for the last few years. So I come at this trying to absorb what I’m hearing. So my first seed is that diversity comes first, but if you don’t also have inclusion, then people will leave. Seems to make sense that if you just have a diverse organization, like Shimrit was saying, but people don’t feel genuinely included in the organization. They’re not going to feel at home, and that’s not going to work. The second seed to plant is that we are in the hard yards now. There’s been a real rush of momentum and process, and people appointed into senior roles responsible for D E and I, and now they’re feeling quite frustrated, quite understandably. And I think this is the time where you just have to kind of stay at it and put in the hard yards. And the third seed to plant, and this is really inspiring to me, is that large organizations are real agents of social change, and there’s a real moment of opportunity for us to create a better world through work. 

[00:35:46.860] – Paul Miller 

I hope you’ve enjoyed today’s program, and if you have, please subscribe and follow us and like us, and I’ll see you next time.