Grammarly: How to create connection with a remote-first approach

[00:00:24.170] – Paul Miller

Welcome to Rewilding Work. I’m Paul Miller. Rewilding Work captures stories and examples of how senior leaders and change-makers are transforming the world of work in their organizations. We talk to organizations like Cisco, the IMF, Microsoft and Disney. Now work was in the news like never before during the pandemic through hybrid working offices or the lack of them and how to connect people. But now in 2023, workers had a new ‘what’s going to happen to work?’ focus with AI and ChatGPT and what will this mean for work and for workers? So with perfect timing today and to me, more intentional way of bringing people together post COVID seen through the eyes of Tracy Hawkins, Head of Workplace and Connection for Grammarly. Grammarly is a typing assistant that reviews spelling, grammar, punctuation and improves clarity. And until a few months ago she was in charge of workplace for Twitter and we hear some of her experiences from that time. So do subscribe to the DWG channel so you get alerted about each new episode. Now for my conversation with Tracy. So Tracy, thank you so much for doing this. So you’re Head of Workplace and Connection at Grammarly.

[00:01:56.770] – Paul Miller

Now, the word that strikes me as unusual in that is connection. Why that term?

[00:02:05.610] – Tracy Hawkins

I think connection is really important, especially post pandemic as we’re still working out how folks are coming together, how we’re connecting in the workplace. In some instances folks are all over the place, they’re still working it out. And so you have people working from home, working from cafes, coming into the office and there isn’t any kind of set guidance, no one’s come up with the Holy Grail yet of what will work for every single company because I don’t think there is any one kind of approach that’s going to work for everyone. And so when I was talking to the Grammarly folks, this is the piece that they are really working hard on. They have this remote first hybrid approach which comes under my area. That’s my piece to manage. And so the connection and bringing everyone together and working out how that is going to make Grammarly and help Grammarly be successful is really important. So as I spoke to Brad, our CEO, it was workplace experience or leader of remote first hybrid or like we were talking about the title and I actually said connection because I thought the connection piece was really important.

[00:03:22.830] – Paul Miller

That’s fantastic. And I love the fact that you sort of design your own job with the CEO, which I think sort of expressive of the culture at Grammarly. But how do you create connection? Because you mentioned that it’s a fully remote company with I think about 400 people in the company.

[00:03:39.000] – Tracy Hawkins

We are just under 1000 actually.

[00:03:41.020] – Paul Miller

Oh right, got that completely wrong. Okay, so 1000 people in the company. Well, how do you create connection when you’ve got 1000 people working remotely?

[00:03:50.160] – Tracy Hawkins

Yeah, well, first of all, we have this remote first hybrid approach, which I should probably explain a little bit, which is depending on the role that you have in the company, everybody comes into the office two to four weeks every quarter. So whether that’s a couple of teams coming together, whether that’s all of our senior folks coming together, we bring everyone together and we focus on obviously things related to the business, roadmaps goals, new products, but also creating the social bonds together because we’re growing as a company. So we’re adding new people all the time, learning and development. And we also want to, as we grow this program and we focus more and refine on it, we also want to add a philanthropic piece of that too, where we should be giving back to the community when we come together and that also helps strengthen those bonds. So the creating the connection piece is really built during that in time period that we have to get together every quarter and then that helps us stay connected when we are remote and when we are working in different ways. I think other ways that we maintain those connections is we operate by some clear core values.

[00:05:09.690] – Tracy Hawkins

Again, we have those goals that create that shared language around how we collaborate throughout the whole period, whether we’re together or whether we are working from home or in another way. We have town halls and product demos and they’re all at regularly scheduled times. So these things become part of our DNA and so we all connect and we all participate in these and then normal things like team meetings. Slack has been huge for us as well. Regular one on ones. Creating that regular cadence is important for connection. Yeah.

[00:05:42.800] – Paul Miller

And it feels to me that what you’re doing, unlike most organizations who I think have been pushed around by the post-pandemic period, it’s almost like they’re always on the back foot. Back foot. Whereas it seems like you’ve asserted yourself over the change and you’ve said, what we want is meaningful. I think you call them alignment days, in-person connection. When I talked to Danielle O’Hare over at Lucasfilm, they talked about moments that matter, getting people together for like two to four weeks. You’re basically saying when we get together, we want it to really make an impact and then that’ll set us up for the next two months.

[00:06:29.390] – Tracy Hawkins

Absolutely right. So the way we bring people together now, we’re asking them to get on planes, we’re asking them to leave their house. And so it needs to be meaningful. They need to feel like the connection we just had is not something that would have been the same over video. And it set us up for those times when we work together and companies are all different. So it’s hard to talk to how other people are doing it. But it does feel like sometimes it’s kind of an arbitrary come in two, three days a week and you don’t know who you’re going to run into. There’s no set guardrails. And I think it degrades the program sometimes if you don’t think about it in an intentional way because people come in and their experience in the offices. I then sat on some Zoom meetings that I could have done at home, or I really hoped I was going to see Bob and Jill, and I never ran into them because I came in on a Tuesday and they came in on a Thursday. And I think what was amazing about Grammarly and to be fair, Brad, our CEO, and as we call them, the O team, our executive team, they were already going down this road.

[00:07:33.080] – Tracy Hawkins

And I’m here to refine it and bring my expertise and things I saw at Twitter and other companies of ensuring that it was intentional and bringing people together and planning it out for the year ahead. I mean, they thought about this Q3/ Q4 last year and planned out these aligned weeks and in-person times for the year ahead so that people can plan their lives around them and so that they can think, oh, I’m not going to book a vacation. And suddenly I’m meant to be at an alignment week so they can really plan it out.

[00:08:03.690] – Paul Miller

Yeah. And I know you talk about enjoyment, precious time fulfillment that are key to your culture. So you mentioned your executive team. Does this come from the top? And has that been a cultural change for them?

[00:08:21.790] – Tracy Hawkins

I think Grammarly, and I’ve been there two months, so I’m still learning, I’m still getting up to speed. I think that is part of who they are. A very recent example is we have a people leadership meeting every week. My daughter had a performance where she was playing the Xylophone and singing about the rain at school. She’s in first grade, she’s seven. And I messaged my boss, who’s Erica, she’s our Chief People Leader, and said to her, I think I might have to miss this. And she was just like, It’s so important. There’s no question you need to be there. And so they are very much they’re more about the results than how much time the face time, how much time have you spent on something? Are you there like kind of like nine to five. And so it is hugely supported by the top. I think a change in leadership can have a massive impact on a company’s culture. So leadership sets the tone, but it’s also on the employees, managers, and people who are seen as culture carriers throughout the organization. Caring about what you do and culture can’t be forced. It’s something that evolves over time and is cultivated by the actions of the leader and things that folks see playing out and important moments at a company.

[00:09:38.430] – Tracy Hawkins

One of the things that if I could just give you a quick example, Twitter days, is, I think, trust and feeling like you’re cared for as an employee is really important and sometimes that only comes out in the really crucial moments, in those moments where you really see what leadership is made of. And my first couple of years at Twitter, one of my first projects there was ironically, I’d moved from London to Dublin, and the first office I had to build out for them was their London office. So I was spending a lot of time flying backwards and forwards. And they were a small team at the time, they were probably less than 100 people. And I remember going for my first meeting with them to talk about their new space and what they wanted to see in their new space. And everyone was really quiet and I was new, so I didn’t really understand what’s going on. And I came to find out that they just found out one of their employees was really very unwell with cancer and she had been with the company for a long time. She was one of the kind of like, first folks in the London office.

[00:10:45.550] – Tracy Hawkins

And as time went on, unfortunately, she was very sick and she ended up passing away. And so as I was talking to them, they were like, we really don’t care what you do with the office, understandably, but we’d like to find a way of commemorating Lucy. And they were all talking about just before she passed away, they’d all got together and they’d learned to knit and they’d all been knitting her a blanket. And this blanket was not a beautiful blanket, but it’s made with love. They’d all learnt they were on the tube knitting, they were in meetings, knitting, and they’d made her this blanket. And so as I was trying to think about how we could commemorate her, I was thinking, Well, I’ll go and have a look at her Twitter feed and try and get to know her as a person. And when she’d received this blanket, she tweeted something after a long gap, because she’d been really ill and obviously she hadn’t been on Twitter, but she tweeted something where she said, I’m so appreciate my work family. This is lovely blanket. And then she went, hashtag, Love where you work. And I was like, that’s the thing.

[00:11:49.200] – Tracy Hawkins

That is the thing. So we made a neon sign, we put it in the space and we thought it was a nice way for when folks saw it, they would think of her, but it wouldn’t be one of those things that was sad. And if they got asked about it by someone, they could just say if they didn’t want to talk about it. We love where we work. And then this whole movement started where we ended up with these neon signs all around the world, in all of the locations. It was something our leadership talked about. It became a huge part of the company and it really showed what the culture was about. And it wasn’t just this arbitrary tagline it actually meant something. And so when you think about culture and you think about how that’s important in a company, that would be an example that I would think of.

[00:12:38.390] – Paul Miller

Yeah. And I’ve seen that, the film that was made about Lucy, and it’s beautiful. It makes me feel like you were at Twitter during the kind of golden days of the organization. And I want to ask you something about the differences now, but one of the things that this series has come out of, Rewilding Work has come out of the book that Shimrit Janes and I wrote called Nature of Work, the idea of organizations as living systems. And it feels to me like when you’re talking about Twitter in those days, when you’re talking about the experience at Grammarly now, this idea of thinking about the health of the system feels really part of it. Now, I know part of your role at Grammarly is around measurement, um, and the importance of that. How are you doing that and what are you finding in the measurement? And I know you’ve only been there a short period of time.

[00:13:30.000] – Tracy Hawkins

Yeah, it’s very early days and there’s a lot more that we want to do around measurement. And we’re currently building out the things that we’re going to include in our scorecard, but some of the initial areas that we’ve looked at in the first couple of months and as you say, it’s not been that long is we do have an element of how people are finding our remote first hybrid model, and we ask them questions around. Do you think it makes you feel more productive? Do you think it makes you feel more connected to your other colleagues? And we ask them to score it. And we’re scoring really highly around that at the moment. People are really seeing the value in it. In the future, I want to start looking at things like we set OKRs and goals, and I want to see how are we achieving them.

[00:14:20.710] – Paul Miller

What’s an OKR?

[00:14:22.850] – Tracy Hawkins

Objective and key results. So goals, basically. And so I want to see how by team, slice and dice, how we’re doing and correlate that to the quality of their in-person time and how they’re feeling about their in-person time and how often they’re getting together to see if that’s helping as well.

[00:14:42.010] – Tracy Hawkins

Some of the initial feedback that we’ve had around areas we can improve is just I think we were a little overzealous when we first brought people together and we were really packing out the agendas. And so whilst people were saying, we really enjoy coming together, it’s been amazing to see folks, then they have all this work to catch up and it can be overwhelming and you’re in another time zone sometimes as well. So you’re like a little jet lagged. And so for the upcoming alignment weeks that we have coming in the next few weeks, we’ve just done simple things like building focus, time building a little bit of downtime, so that when people are in sessions, they’re not thinking about, oh, no, I’ve got to send that email. Or I owe that customer this thing so that they can be fully present when we bring folks together. And also trying to make balanced sessions, sessions that aren’t too long, sessions where you mix it up a little bit and there’s maybe something fun followed by something a bit more meaty and detailed and so being more thoughtful around that and to help support that, I literally on Monday have a Leader of Community and Connection starting.

[00:15:46.690] – Tracy Hawkins

So she’s going to be really focused on that too and just ensuring the quality of the agenda is really good and we continue to measure it.

[00:15:54.340] – Paul Miller

I think that’s a fantastic idea. I mean, we we like as a company to have in-person times. We have management teams who live together. We call it big brother house. I sometimes say we don’t work together, but we do live together. How do you look back on your Twitter days? I’m just interested. You’ve had some amazing experiences there. It’s a different organization now than it was. How do you look back on it and what do you feel like you learned?

[00:16:32.990] – Tracy Hawkins

I absolutely loved it. I feel so lucky and privileged to have got to work at Twitter. I was able to come in just as we were becoming a public company. We were growing so fast. I felt like I learned so much from just people leadership side of things to how to scale globally. It was a very employee focused, mission driven company. People really cared about the work that they did and how they achieved it by collaboration and understanding that employees were people who had lives outside of work. But that just made it an even better connection because I felt like we still had a really high bar for the work that we did and how we worked together. And as I thought about moving to Grammarly, that was another thing that I wanted to keep. It was like 50% a fulfilling role and something I felt was an innovative approach to how we got together and was really thinking about the future of work, but also just a company that cared about the humans that worked for it and was mission driven. Their mission is to improve lives by improving communication and to come from a company which was a global platform which stripped out the hierarchy aspect of who you wanted to talk to, but created this forum for you to be able to put out your message or interact with people that you might normally not be able to get in a room with.

[00:18:04.170] – Tracy Hawkins

To now be focused on quality of communication and helping people in this world that’s becoming more and more asynchronous get together and get the message right and share what they’re trying to say in a clear way. I feel like it’s such a great progression for me, but I will always be super thankful for Twitter. I had an amazing experience there. It was a fantastic product. It was top notch people that it attracted, and I got to build the most fantastic team. That’s the saddest part of moving on from Twitter, is leaving that team because it was nine years of work to bring that team together, and they were fantastic. But I learned so much, and I have a new great team at Grammarly, and I get to work with them and do that work again. So I look back at it in immense pride and just I feel so, so lucky to have been part of such a special moment.

[00:18:53.760] – Paul Miller

Okay, and give me 1 minute on how ChatGPT is running through Gammarly. Just a quick response.

[00:19:05.130] – Tracy Hawkins

I think we’re just focused on what we need to do. We have a great product, and it’s been around for a while now, and we’re just focused on making that stronger and doing what we can do to help people communicate better. So really, I don’t think that focused. Obviously, we’re aware we have an awareness, but we’re really not that focused on what other folks are doing. We’re more focused on how we can make our product even better for our customers and fulfill our mission.

[00:19:31.950] – Paul Miller

Great. Fantastic. Thank you so much, Tracy. It’s been lovely to talk to you, and thanks so much for coming on.

[00:19:40.200] – Tracy Hawkins

Of course. Thanks for having me. It was great to chat to you.

[00:19:49.070] – Paul Miller

Now, I’m very pleased to dissect what Tracy talked about with our two studio guests. Nancy Goebel, who recently took over from me as CEO of the Digital Workplace Group, and David Cairns, Senior Vice President of Office Leasing for commercial real estate firm, CBRE Canada. Nancy, Tracy is Head of Workplace and Connection, and the term that really stood out for me is connection. That feels like a new term in the world of work. Why do you think that is?

[00:20:26.810] – Nancy Goebel

Well, I think about some traditional functions like finance, and those are roles that are long standing in the corporate structure and have very defined titles. There are probably half a dozen you see when you think about a CFO or equivalent, lots of education, tenure-based path, and career progression. In sharp contrast, you’ve got roles like Tracy’s that are leading the way in shaping the future of work off the back of a pandemic, such that hybrid is becoming an important part of helping organizations redefine ways of working, and in Tracy’s case, foundational to that is human connection. And as I look at individuals who are in stewardship roles like Tracy’s, they actually are developing titles that are really reflective of their stewardship agendas.

[00:21:38.830] – Paul Miller

Yeah, and I know that Tracy mentioned that when she went for the job at Grammarly after being at Twitter, she specifically said she wanted the title of connection. It also reminds me of somebody else who I spoke to from LinkedIn who’d got a diversity role. And she added the word belonging in. Sort of picks up on your point, Nancy, of having titles almost drive the role. And Dave, what’s your feelings about this word connection? And what’s your overall response to what Tracy talked to me about?

[00:22:18.350] – David Cairns

Well, I love that these titles are starting to come to fruition because I think what the pandemic ultimately has done is it’s exposed to us that there were a lot of places and spaces with which we lacked connection and perhaps that we ultimately took for granted our colleagues. Right. I always think of those more personal relationships in our lives like the partners that we decide to spend our lives with. Often we can spend many, many hours around those people days, hours, weeks, months, years. But we can take them for granted. And sometimes you need to shake things up in a partnership and just go grab a cup of tea or coffee and sit for 2 hours and just talk away from your house or away from all those responsibilities and actually ensure that you don’t show up to that conversation to talk about anything to do with the day-to-day of your life, that you might debate something about life itself or just have a meaningful conversation. And so to me, I think the pandemic just showed that. And I think that we sort of assumed that by being in the office together all the time that we were connected, but we ultimately kind of weren’t.

[00:23:32.890] – David Cairns

And I almost felt this surge of connection in the beginning of the pandemic, and I witnessed all these people from around the world starting to interact with each other through digital channels, actually, and really getting outside of their own organizations or getting around their organizations in ways that they were not before. And so I think that this is really just an acknowledgment, these titles that there’s so much that we were asleep about really before and we’re now awake. That’s kind of the way that I would articulate it.

[00:24:07.120] – Paul Miller

Yeah. And it’s a great way of putting it. And I remember pre-pandemic because I’d go into these offices and there’d be a lot of people physically, ostensibly together, but having no contact with each other. So it was the illusion of connection. And I think, as you said, Dave, the pandemic sort of revealed what was really there. And one of the things that I also really enjoyed from what Tracy was talking about was that Grammarly’s emphasis on the importance of social connection. So we used to sort of assume a level of social connection, and I think it’s still regarded as a nice to have, but we need some more legitimacy, don’t we, to socially connecting that it matters.

[00:24:56.830] – Nancy Goebel

Well, when I stop and think about the traditionalists and I won’t name names in this case, but these are organizations that were in the press quite a lot. And I think about the fact that they called people back into the office on scale. Because the view is that you can only be productive when you’re working in person. And what they’re thinking about is the what of work and operate within a system of controls. What Grammarly is doing is fostering an adaptive environment where people can bring their whole selves to work, and that in order to do that, they’re placing importance on connection, collaboration, and what people need to do to thrive in what is now a hybrid world. And to my mind, they’re looking at the power of balancing the what and the how of work in a hybrid world. So it’s fostering a sense of social connection and placing value on social connection in the workplace because they recognize that their employees are happier and healthier, more trusting, and that will ultimately result in better work performance and a better experience of work. And that’s a powerful combination. So rather than just defaulting to things like the systems of old, they’re thinking about all aspects of what individuals need, and fundamentally, we’re social creatures at the heart.

[00:26:47.920] – Nancy Goebel

And so recognizing that, to my mind, shows a level of emotional intelligence in the leadership, not just Tracy, but Grammarly as a whole.

[00:27:00.950] – Paul Miller

Dave – the thing that struck me, looking at all these different approaches that organizations have got to hybrid working, is that they’ve sort of steered away from mandating. Or if they do mandate it’s in a really prosaic way, it’s like, you’re going to come in two days a week, three days a week. But what I noticed listening and talking to Tracy is that they’re mandating once a quarter. We want everybody together, and we want you to essentially socialize, connect, engage. Their design and they’re using event designers to kind of make this happen. And isn’t it time we kind of embraced a bit of mandated direction from organizations in this way when they know where they’re going?

[00:27:46.630] – David Cairns

When you say mandated directions, I just want to make sure I understand what you mean. I’m thinking of it more in relation to, like, this is how we connect, versus we come in two days a week. Is that kind of what you mean?

[00:27:59.980] – Paul Miller

Well, I suppose they’re saying once a quarter, we want to have everybody there. They’re telling people to do that. That’s what I mean by mandated.

[00:28:10.950] – David Cairns

Yeah. Well, I actually really love their approach versus a structured two, three day hybrid approach. There was a guy who did a hilarious TikTok video earlier this week, and he basically said this whole hybrid thing was cute for a while, but it’s not really an adult way of working. It almost sounds like a kid’s taekwondo schedule. I thought that that was really funny. And I think Tracy was sort of making a less satirical commentary on the same thing, which is to say that just going to the office two or three days a week to plop your laptop down and get on calls is not really an empowering way to work. But to take a stance as an organization and say, look, we need to connect with each other at a certain cadence on an annual basis. This is the way we think that we should do it. We think that we should be talking about product launches and getting new projects off the ground and just connecting with one another. And that should happen four or six times a year. That’s so great. And again, what I love about it is that they allow people to plan their lives around those activities.

[00:29:23.990] – David Cairns

And that’s critical, right? Like, as a parent myself, just being able to sit down with my partner and say, look, this is what the year looks like and let’s figure out how that all works. And then they still have a culture of trust and empathy and just humanity in that they realize things come up for people. And it’s not like a mandate to even attend all of those kinds of activities. If you have something going on, they’re willing to accept that as just like, this is life, right? So when I compare what Grammarly is doing to the other structured hybrid organizations, I’m way a fan of Grammarly over the other approach. And I think the last thing I’d say on it is that there’s also an inherent acknowledgment there that the majority of the work that we do is kind of productivity driven on a day-to-day basis. A lot of it asynchronous. And so it just doesn’t really require that we be together in that kind of daily, structured, cadence way. It’s more important for us to be able to get together in intentional ways, potentially at a lesser frequency.

[00:30:32.010] – Paul Miller

And Nancy, inevitably Tracy started talking about her many years that she spent at Twitter. What did you take from her Twitter time, her Twitter experiences, as they’ve clearly made a huge impact on her.

[00:30:46.640] – Nancy Goebel

Well, I think there were lots of things that stood out, but the one that really stuck with me is that there’s a place for love in the workplace. We’re social creatures who feel a need for building trust and connection and feeling cared for day-to-day. But when significant life events come up, that can be particularly important. And Tracy shared that, I think, in a very poignant way when she talked about Lucy’s story and how her colleagues came together to support her through her illness and then subsequently honor her after she passed away. And it really established the idea that we can have work families, not just personal families, where we come together during those challenging moments. Because very often we spend more time with our work families than we do with our own families. Because of the nature of a typical work day, regardless of whether you’re in the office or not, it’s a large portion of one’s day.

[00:32:07.370] – Paul Miller

Yeah. Dave, I know you’re familiar with Tracy. You’ve kind of just she’s somebody you know well in the industry and she’s an amazing person. I mean, what did you take either from that or from her time at Twitter?

[00:32:23.150] – David Cairns

Well, it’s just cool to hear that she started at the company when they were, like, roughly 100 people. Wow. Helped them grow through an IPO and just what a ride that would be. And I really did just like to hear that same story that Nancy brought up. One of the things that struck me, though, about it was that these people were connecting around the the unfortunate situation of losing a colleague in many, many places, in many ways, that went beyond the confines of an office. It sounds like they were knitting. Whatever they were knitting were all over the place, and they were connecting all over the place. So to me, it just was another reminder, too, though. That connection is ubiquitous, and it’s everywhere. And that was another thing that really struck me, and I think that Tracy really embodies that with her work.

[00:33:17.630] – Paul Miller

Yeah. I mean, she strikes me she’s a very pioneering, kind of practically pioneering person in the industry. She clearly went to Grammarly with a certain intention, certain agenda. Let’s build connection. Let’s not just have a roll around workplace and also looking at the kind of metrics around that and seeing how it affects the organization, experimentation. Anything that I haven’t asked you that you feel like you want to say based on what you listen to. With Tracy, Nancy,

[00:33:56.170] – Nancy Goebel

I guess one final thought would be to add another layer to the work that Tracy and team are doing at Grammarly. I talked a little bit about the what and how of work there, but to hone in on your point, I think they have such clarity around the why of their work as well. So put that another way, individuals, teams, and the organization have clarity of purpose and how people are measured against that. And I think it becomes less important where you’re sitting on a given day. When you are mission driven and you have context, then you can be adult about where and how that gets done day-to-day. But it also allows you to have the head space to be collaborative and creative and have fulfillment as you go about your daily work as well.

[00:35:01.670] – Paul Miller

That’s great. And Dave, anything that you feel you haven’t said based on what you’ve heard?

[00:35:08.070] – David Cairns

Yeah. Well as someone who’s like an office leasing broker and just someone who’s in the office industry. What I really like about how Tracy defined a remote first hybrid approach and I’d add some extra context to it, which is to say, I know there’s many employees that would decide to go into an office to conduct their productive work on a Tuesday or whatever. The point is, they’re given the opportunity to access space and do whatever work they need to do. It’s not to suggest basically that if a company’s remote first hybrid, that all their employees are working from home all the time. It’s just that it’s free assigned, and there’s choice around where people work on a day-to-day basis, and then they have this cadence of getting together with intentional frequency. And I think that that’s important to call out because the word remote really gets a lot of people’s backup, especially in the office industry. Right. But I actually believe there’s a huge opportunity to support remote work. The office industry, in other words, can support remote work if it just maybe decided to not be so triggered by the word.

[00:36:19.290] – Paul Miller

Yeah, that’s a good way of putting it. I think the word that’s going to stay with me from the interview is intentional, because I think there’s a shortage of intentional approaches. They’re quite reactive, quite sort of mechanical approaches. But thank you so much. Thank you, Dave, for your contributions. And, Nancy, thanks so much for coming on and having some commentary and punditry about Tracy.

[00:36:49.490] – David Cairns

Yeah, my pleasure.

[00:36:51.330] – Nancy Goebel

My pleasure as well.

[00:36:56.470] – Paul Miller

So here are my three seeds to plant based on the conversation with Tracy and the chat with Nancy and Dave. Seed number one, we need to mandate in person working regularly, but not too frequently. I e. We need to tell people they actually need to be together regularly. And the key to this, I think, is the frequency. If you’re suggesting this happens every week, it’s too much. But and I’m not saying you follow exactly the Grammarly example of a quarter, but something that has some regularity to it. Seed number two, being together in person to socialize is worth its weight in gold. We’re human beings. We like to be together, we make friendships, we like to socialize. And I think we took for granted socializing in work pre-pandemic and now post-pandemic, we really need to see and value its importance. And my third seed to plant is be intentional and thoughtful about post-pandemic working. Don’t just follow the crowd and say, well, you’re going to be in every Tuesday and Wednesday because everybody else is doing it. Be intentional. Think about it, deliberate and explain it to people. So, I hope you enjoyed today’s episode and do subscribe to our channel DWG and you’ll get alerted about each new episode and look forward to seeing you next time.