Avanade: How to be an AI-first CEO – with Pamela Maynard

[00:00:24.050] – Paul Miller

Welcome to Rewilding Work. I’m Paul Miller. Rewilding Work captures stories and examples of how senior leaders and changemakers are transforming the world of work across their organisations. So what is an AI-first CEO and what does AI leadership look like in practice? Well, to answer these questions, my guest today is exceptional and I am so excited to have her on the show. Pamela Maynard has been CEO of Avanade since 2019. Avanade is a joint venture between Microsoft and Accenture and is a leading digital innovator on the Microsoft ecosystem. Pamela leads a global team of more than 60,000 employees, and her path to the top of Avanade has been steady. She ran Avanade UK, then became the Europe Area President across 13 countries. She serves on the boards of the Royal Horticultural Society and the Junior Achievement Worldwide. We talk just after the world’s first AI security summit held at Bletchley Park, iconic home of the World War Two codebreakers, and the conversation between British Prime Minister Rishi Sunak and Elon Musk was all about navigating and preparing for an AI led world.

[00:01:56.180] – Paul Miller

A summit Pamela mentions a timely coincidence. Do subscribe to the DWG channel so you get alerted about each new episode. And now for Pamela Maynard. So, Pam, what does it mean to be an AI-first CEO? Because I love that expression and I’m really intrigued to hear what what you think that means.

[00:02:27.090] – Pamela Maynard

Yeah. And it’s it’s a fantastic question and one definitely that’s front of mind given everything that’s been happening in the UK this week around the Bletchley Park summit and that gathering of international and global leaders and really does does make one reflect. And I’ve seen like you have pull a huge amount of technology innovation in my lifetime and yeah, definitely definitely across the years that I have been following my career in technology. But it’s absolutely no comparison to what we’re seeing now in terms of the genuine human impact that I believe. And I’m certain you and many of your listeners watchers were to believe in terms of what AI will have in terms of the months and years to come. And CEOs, again, as you know, set the tone for successful organisations and how we should be thinking about embracing AI. And so when I think about being an AI-first CEO, for me, it absolutely starts with starting that company-wide AI strategy and establishing and thinking about how I can establish AI fluency in the organisation, how I can build that culture of trust.

[00:03:42.330] – Pamela Maynard

And we’ve heard a lot about trust and transparency this week in the world of AI and therefore have that underpinning and responsible AI framework. And that started for me in terms of appointing a Global Chief AI Officer for Avanade, which from what I’ve seen with conversations with others, that is, you know, a first, there aren’t many organisations out there who have done that and given him the responsibility of really leading and executing a global AI strategy. If Florin had over 150 conversations with our clients in and, you know, across just the first six weeks, which again shows the yeah, again shows that kind of interest in this topic. And also, you know, we’ve been working with many clients as well in terms of helping them. So for example, PageGroup the recruiters, which I’m certain you’ve heard about helping them to leverage Azure OpenAI to create a better experience for jobseekers. But, you know, AI-first means prioritising your people, helping them to have the skills that they need, helping them to identify where AI can be used and used in a responsible way across their day-to-day work to improve efficiency, creativity and have impact.

[00:05:04.740] – Pamela Maynard

And so it’s, you know, clearly, being a technology organization, we’re really keen to harness AI both in terms of the services we deliver for clients, but how we operate. But we’ve got to do that in a way that puts people first.

[00:05:19.110] – Paul Miller

Yeah. And then that’s great. And thank you for mentioning Florin Rotar, who I you know, as you know, I know him well. And I thought it was amazing to see that he was your Chief AI Officer. I think when AI sort of started arriving in force at the end of 2022, exponentially, I thought organizations will put C-suite people in charge of AI. And and I think the way you’ve put it is that AI is a support and enabler, almost like a characteristic of a CEO and a leader. And so how can AI be an opportunity to disrupt the ways of working that don’t serve us? And do you have any Avanade examples? Because I’m always interested in how how can AI help us rather than sort of defeat us or subjugate us.

[00:06:14.220] – Pamela Maynard

Yeah. And again, how relevant, given some of the conversations that we’ve heard over the past week and I’m in the same, you know, same ball park the same park as you around thinking, how can we use AI to help us? And from that perspective, you know, do we want to be disrupted or do we want to be the disruptors? Right. Because that’s again, from a technology industry perspective, that’s our choice. And very much for me as the CEO of Avanade. What I’ve said to my team is let’s look at how we can use AI to disrupt what we do and disrupt the norms. And so we’ve launched a program called Disrupt Avanade. It’s an internal program with cross-functional teams collaborating across the business to identify opportunities where we can use AI to disrupt and transform every single aspect of how we work. We’re currently experimenting and piloting with around 13 use cases across the organization. In just three months now, people have generated over 300 ideas pull across different functions including HR, Operations, legal.

[00:07:26.800] – Pamela Maynard

And of course, engineering, you know, in terms of how we might be able to use AI. So one of those examples to answer your question is in our HR function and in particular around talent acquisition, as you know, we hire many people. And typically our people spend tons and tons of time curating content and using that to build job postings, a very manual process. But by harnessing generative AI, that type team can create job descriptions in our tone of voice whilst also maintaining the flexibility to alter them as needed. But know kind of get that starter going using AI that’s helping them to save time in the manual processes and enabling them to focus on the value add of continuing to attract that diverse talent, which is so important to to Avanade. Right. So that’s just one example.

[00:08:22.750] – Paul Miller

Just out of interest. I mean, when did you kind of decide that AI had to be sort of front and center for Avanade? Because obviously AI has been around for for decades in one form or another. And then when ChatGPT arrived, you know, I’d got my daughter saying, God, look, look what it can do with my thesis. This is amazing. You know, there’s this thing called AI. I mean, when when did it when did you make that sort of decision that Avanade needed to put it front and center in this way.

[00:08:56.500] – Pamela Maynard

Well, we’ve been working with AI for many years, and this is one of the things that, you know, we talk about to our clients as well, because there is no one size fits all when it comes to AI. It isn’t all about generative AI. There are many different AI disciplines. And so we’ve been working with it with for many years. I really feel that the momentum has picked up and has been catalyzed by generative AI, and we have been involved since 2018, really, and working with Microsoft around where Microsoft might be going and learning and understanding that in terms of really working alongside Microsoft. And then, of course, when Microsoft made the big investment with OpenAI. Um, know, again, that’s sort of picked up our momentum and the way in which we worked with in the whole space of generative AI. So it’s something it’s a discipline that we’ve been developing in the business for many years. But really I’ve seen the momentum really pick up across 2018 and then into 2020 and beyond.

[00:10:08.050] – Paul Miller

That’s great. I mean, I think one of the differences when I think of this, this particular wave of technological transformation is that there’s a lot more thought. I mean, you mentioned the Bletchley Bletchley Park summit this week around safety and protocols, and there’s a lot more concern about ethics and AI. So why is it necessary for organisations to implement what I would call ethical AI guardrails?

[00:10:35.230] – Pamela Maynard

Yeah. And I mean, there is so much research, you know, that shows that there’s a lot of doubt and there’s that lack of trust. And the fact, as you say, that people don’t feel safe and concern about how humans will behave with AI. A lot of fear mongering again this week in the press around this whole around the Bletchley Park event. But that’s why we must keep responsibility, trust, transparency as non-negotiables and front of mind in an AI-first world and look to minimise bias and discrimination. And one of the reasons, from my perspective, is I just don’t believe a regulation is going to be able to keep up with the pace of technology, the pace of development. And so it’s on us as leaders. And I really do feel that to have responsibility built into guardrails, as you say, we’ve, as you know, Avanade being created by Microsoft and Accenture. So we’ve been collaborating with both of those organisations to formalise frameworks as to how we will engage with AI, how we prioritise ethical and responsible practices.

[00:11:51.100] – Pamela Maynard

So we’ve created our first ever responsible AI policy that that came right, effective on the first of this month of October, and includes guiding principles that are rooted in our own purpose and values. And I think that’s the other opportunity here. How can you use those frameworks to bring to life, or to continue to enforce your purpose and your values as a as an organisation, and also therefore help you to or help to reflect how you want to show up in an AI first world as generative AI evolves, our responsible AI framework will continue to evolve as well. And I think that’s really important. It’s not just about setting the guardrails here and expecting them to stay here. You also go into this with an understanding that you’re going to need to continue to review your guardrails as the technology continues to evolve, and we’re also helping our clients to understand that and working with our clients to understand it and understand how their responsible AI frameworks need to be implemented, how we can get them ready for AI as well within those guardrails.

[00:13:00.680] – Paul Miller

Yeah, I mean, and that’s it’s it’s to me, it’s really exciting to see that this technological change is having this much more mature kind of thinking around it that actually, because I feel like we wandered into social media with a kind of naive optimism that, you know, will connect people. That’s a good thing, isn’t it? And and then you kind of are faced with the implications of that, good and bad. But I feel that there is a greater maturity going into this. Maybe we appreciate that it’s got a deeper significance than we sort of there’s a certain level that we understand AI and there’s most of it. We don’t and we can’t quite imagine where it’s going to go. So I think what can we influence and control? And so, I mean, you’ve led a charge and you mentioned this, Pam, on diversity and bias in AA. In AI. What does that actually mean in practice?

[00:13:58.100] – Pamela Maynard

Yeah. I mean, we’ve known each other for a long time. And as you say, one of my passions is how can I, you know, work with others to create a more inclusive and diverse technology industry? Because for me, diversity is key to innovation. Absolutely key. And I do believe that, you know, difference makes you powerful. You know, it allows you to see problems from a different angle, to see opportunity in a different way. And and that’s where true innovation can really come from. So as we enter this world of AI in a much more assertive way, um, you know, we need to make sure that we’re harnessing those different perspectives in this AI world, right? And ensuring that the percentage of developers building AI solutions and models is different, you know, is diverse. And it’s not just representing one ethnicity, one gender or one age group, because then the risk of bias and discrimination inside those AI models, you know, and those future iterations is just too great.

[00:15:13.100] – Pamela Maynard

And so, for example, you know, when bias seeps into AI, you will see predictive algorithms, for example, that might be used in policing that disproportionately will target communities of color or generative models that, you know, don’t actually function as well when someone’s maybe speaking with a different accent. Um, and so it’s really, really important that we, you know, again, as we consider how we’re developing and generative AI, that we do have diverse teams, not just creating the models, but also tuning the models and also looking at the results. That’s the other piece that’s really critically important. So we can go we can watch for bias in that way. Um, you know, we we see bias embedded across society. I mean, obviously we do. And one of the sectors that we work with a lot is in the financial services and in the UK. You know, just think about it. How many women who look like me. So black female founders actually receive funding from 2019, 2009 to 2019.

[00:16:23.480] – Pamela Maynard

Across that ten years, only ten. All right. Only ten. So that’s less than 1% is going to women overall. And 0.02% went to black women in a decade in the US. You know, black women and the fastest growing group of founders and entrepreneurs, more than doubling between 2014 and 2019. But despite that, they face horrendous roadblocks and bias in terms of actually getting access to funding and to be able to plug the wealth gap, it’s going to take 200 years. Now, how do I know so much of that, that that’s because this is one of the problems that we’re working with a nonprofit called Prosperity Out, trying to help to solve and helping them to create what we’re calling a credit box, which systematically systemized a or looks at the algorithm that’s analyzing risk and looks at the opportunity to adjust that algorithm to create a more equitable access to funding and funding decisions. And I see AI playing a really big role in those solving those sorts of problems that can help us to create a much more inclusive world.

[00:17:44.170] – Paul Miller

That’s that’s great. I mean, and we, you know, we started talking about AI-first CEO well, what will AI mean, do you think for leadership generally in the next few years? I mean, how will it be changed or even transformed, do you think?

[00:18:01.000] – Pamela Maynard

Yeah.

[00:18:02.500] – Pamela Maynard

I think, you know, AI from a leadership perspective, leaders have to have, have to keep our minds open about, you know, how AI can and should be used. Yeah, AI isn’t perfect. We all know that. We’ve just been talking about bias. And that’s going to continue to be innovation. Again, we’ve touched on that to address the shortcomings and also improve the strengths of AI. But strong leadership is going to be required to get it right. It really is. And that’s we need to bear that in mind. You know, as leaders, we’ve just launched an AI readiness research report, which I’m certain you would love to see if you haven’t seen it already. Paul, I know that you love reading new pieces of research and we we actually that research harnesses insight from over 3000 business and IT leaders from around the world, and 92% of them agreed that they needed to shift their organizations to AI in the next 12 months or so. But also in thinking about that, you know, they you know, if you like three key highlights in terms of what’s front of mind for those leaders as they shift.

[00:19:22.570] – Pamela Maynard

The first is about putting people first. And that might be a shift for several leaders, is for people first in that in this era of AI, because successful AI adoption means that we need to keep a focus on our most important assets, which is our people. Helping them to feel safe in them as they go about their day to day jobs in that world of AI. Taking advantage of opportunity in our research actually pointed out that some believe up to 20 hours can be saved in terms of some of those non-productive tasks and those more mundane tasks. And that’s just the beginning. So putting people first, making sure people are safe in how they use AI, and also taking advantage of the opportunity of AI, that’s the first thing. The second thing is about doing, you know, responsibly responsible AI. Just as we discussed earlier, disruption is the norm. The first step to readiness is getting everybody on board with a responsible AI framework, helping people to understand the why of AI, pinpointing where it has the most potential and can gain immediate impact.

[00:20:35.220] – Pamela Maynard

And the third piece, you know, as a leader is ensuring the you ground the company’s use of AI in purpose and values are clearly articulated. Purpose just helps to guide organizations through good times and challenging times. I’ve seen that myself as we set Avanade’s purpose up back in 2019 and having been that, you know, using that purpose then to to lead and navigate, you know, the use of technologies like generative AI, therefore, grounding your organization in the AI journey and in your purpose will help you to continue to focus on doing what’s right and and keeping aligned with your objectives around AI.

[00:21:20.280] – Paul Miller

Yeah, that’s that’s great. I mean, I can feel your enthusiasm not just for for AI, but for your role as the leader of Avanade at this time. I mean, you completely love your job, don’t you?

[00:21:34.260] – Pamela Maynard

Yeah.

[00:21:37.290] – Paul Miller

I mean, I’m sure it’s got I’m sure it’s got lots of stresses and challenges and things like that. But it does sound. And in a way, the AI is sort of adds a almost like a, a new kind of dynamism into the, into the technology field. Yeah. So what have I not asked you that you’d like to add?

[00:22:00.180] – Pamela Maynard

Yeah. I mean, it’s funny because you always see my face light up when you say, oh, you really love your job, I do, I absolutely. I really do love my job. Um, it brings different challenges every day. Brings, you know, breadth of opportunity. Um, and not just for me, but to create opportunity for others, um, you know, and so and as you say and one of those is AI, um, and I love to be inspired by, you know, thinking about new technology. And it really does feel even though, as I said to you, we’ve been working with AI for many years, it does feel like the era of AI is here now.

[00:22:44.100] – Paul Miller

Yeah, yeah,

[00:22:45.360] – Pamela Maynard

It really does feel like that. And the success or failure of AI in our organization depends on whether, you know, we actually get the steps right these first critical steps. Right. And I think that’s that’s one of the the points that I just would like to sort of finish on. There is no, no one size fits all right when organisations are ready for generative AI, but others won’t be um, they might need to evolve their infrastructure. They might need to evolve their apps, application estates, their data platforms before they can really get the true value out of generative tools and put them to work on solving some of those most compelling, difficult challenges that they have. Which is why AI readiness is at the heart of how we’re approaching this moment every where. Everyone can get started somewhere. But that starting point, that’s somewhere starting point is going to look different for all of us, and that’s something that we all need to accept. But absolutely, it feels like the moment is here.

[00:23:54.630] – Paul Miller

Yeah and I think that’s a fantastic point to to conclude on. And I mean, I do feel that the world kind of needs some technological transformation. It also needs, you know, if I think about things that give me hope, one is nature’s ability to recover when it’s not being harmed. You know, you look at kind of what can happen in terms of rewilding, getting back to the rewilding bit of work, but also just the the ingenuity of human beings. And it’s been wonderful talking to you, Pam, and thank you so much for coming on.

[00:24:30.900] – Pamela Maynard

Well, thank you for giving me the opportunity, and it’s wonderful to catch up with you again.

[00:24:41.320] – Paul Miller

So let’s welcome today’s experts to reflect on my interview with Pam. Nancy Goebel is CEO of the Digital Workplace Group based on the US East Coast. Nancy succeeded me as CEO in January 2023, and our other pundit is cultural anthropologist Iveta Hajdakova, Associate Director at Stripe Partners, a research and strategy consultancy. Great. So great to have you both here. So, Iveta, let me start with you. Overall reactions to my conversation with Pamela Maynard at Avanade.

[00:25:22.880] – Iveta Hajdakova

Yeah, very exciting to hear a leader like Pamela talk about AI and building trust throughout the company, supporting people and building this AI fluency and building the responsible AI framework. I also really liked to hear that they are really conscious of putting people first and creating AI solutions that are kind of helping people remove the tasks that they would otherwise not like to be doing, and help them focus on the the part of work that is more meaningful to them. Um, and I really liked her thoughts on ethics and the guardrails and how important that is. Um, and yeah, she, she mentioned that the, this type of thinking around ethics and AI will probably not come from regulators. So it’s important to have these, um, CEOs, leaders who who are having these conversations. Um, at the moments that would be that would be the top line, I guess.

[00:26:54.240] – Paul Miller

Sure. No, that’s that’s great. And, Nancy, what are your what are your top lines on listening to my chat with with Pamela.

[00:27:03.230] – Nancy Goebel

I’ll have to say that it was such an insightful conversation. Paul. I took so much away. I literally wrote pages of notes where I normally type my notes. I actually decided to write them by hand, because I find that I remember things for the long term, and I wanted to remember the essence and the energy of this conversation. And so I took away many points from things like starting with client zero, organizations like Avanade are their own testbed, their large, complex global organization, the importance of providing context of the clarity of strategy and purpose, to think about the importance of choosing your paradigm, choosing your path. You either need to be the disruptor or be disrupted. In this age of fast-moving technological advancements and lots of economic uncertainty. But most importantly, people need to be at the center of your approach. And as part of that, it’s important to embrace differences, because those are the things that make you powerful as an organization. Um, things that we talk about with our members all the time, um, have to do with making sure that you do your homework.

[00:28:33.290] – Nancy Goebel

The role of data and insights to inform your thinking is equally powerful and critical, but also providing structure through leadership and governance, because it’s important to ensure that there’s a framework that allows the best to bubble up to the surface and a thoughtful approach to managing risk along the way. And I would add to that the importance of creating a test and learn approach to things. The more we experiment, the more we learn and refine and create a path forward, especially in this AI realm.

[00:29:15.770] – Paul Miller

Um, and I was struck a lot by Pam’s emphasis on guardrails and guardrails and ethics. I mean, how easy, Nancy, do you think it is for leaders to achieve that?

[00:29:28.120] – Nancy Goebel

Well, when I think about all of the different technology disruptions that we’ve gone through over the last 25 years, when we’re in the hype cycle, it feels kind of like a heavy task because there’s so much new information coming at us. And the tendency is to want to lock everything down. But I think about how many organizations have come through those changes with such clarity of approach and purpose that think once you get past the hype cycle, then you can allow for a balance of that experimentation that I was talking about, and also tap the core things that we know have successfully enabled corporate governance for generations. And it comes down to that strategy and purpose. It comes down to having those powerful data and insights and all of the other factors that Pam brought to life as part of this conversation, and to have trusted partners that are there to guide you along the way, can be a powerful way to get past the emotional aspects of that hype cycle and really get grounded in what’s needed next.

[00:30:48.330] – Paul Miller

Hmm. Yeah. And Iveta, Pam’s got, I think, and I hope you do too. Amazing energy. Clarity. It’s quite unusual, isn’t it? In a in a leader. And especially when they’re talking about artificial intelligence, generative AI. I mean, what kind of value do you think that energy brings to the change she’s trying to enact, trying to enact.

[00:31:16.780] – Iveta Hajdakova

Uh, yeah, you’re right, I actually. Yeah, I remember that moment when she just had this expression and she was clearly so excited about her. Um, I think. Um, overall, just that passion and the energy are great to see in leaders, in people in, in workplaces because they’re contagious. They are um, I feel like they kind of make people trust the person a little bit more because, um, if you see that the individual is attached to, to to the mission that they’re talking about, then it almost makes you feel like, okay, well, I trust that this person really takes the job and the responsibility that comes with it very seriously. Plus, she mentioned how she was personally passionate about diversity and and inclusion. So, um, that those are really fresh things to to see in a leader. Um, and yeah, really exciting to see somebody like that. Yeah.

[00:32:30.420] – Paul Miller

Yeah. I mean, and looking at it from a cultural anthropology point of view, which is your, your, your own work, Iveta. I mean, where does that fit into all of these changes with AI? Because obviously AI’s going to change culture inside an organization. We’re not we’re not quite sure how. And and that makes it really quite unusual. Do you have any thoughts around the kind of culture anthropology side of of AI.

[00:33:03.680] – Iveta Hajdakova

Yeah, loads of thoughts. I don’t think I have any answers, but yeah, I’ve been thinking from. About a lot of things from just, you know, what is AI, what is its relationship to how humans think, especially with, um, the generative AI and neural networks that are supposed to be modeled based on how humans think. So there’s that element in how do we even think of this technology in relation to to us. And then there’s also the question of trust and, um, fake information, which probably will become a huge challenge. And how how are we going to ensure that people that we all know how to process this information, um, and how to verify information. And another thing is the speed of change and the speed of disruption. I feel like we to to to your point, like we’ve had a lot of disruptions already. And this new technology is going to is already disrupting, um, culture is disrupting institutions. And we’ve already seen that this affects trust that people have in already existing institutions.

[00:34:32.660] – Iveta Hajdakova

So that will probably be a, you know, something that we’ll have to deal with. But I really like that. Pamela, in that interview mentioned that, you know, there are a lot of different types of AI technologies. There are a lot of types of companies, and we have to deal with these individually. Um, so yeah, I think there’s going to be a lot of demand for experts, for people who can efficiently kind of communicate across different disciplines and can really have or initiate and lead nuanced conversations, um, without too much simplification.

[00:35:18.440] – Paul Miller

So Nancy have appointed their own Chief AI Officer. And do you think that other companies of similar size should be doing the same thing and getting a C-suite executive responsible for AI?

[00:35:34.550] – Nancy Goebel

I think starting with Avanade that, it was quite astute of them to introduce the office of a Chief AI Officer. We’re establishing that we’re clearly in a phase of disruption and I think it not only inspired confidence internally within Avanade, but also with clients. And so I think other organizations need to pause and look at that as a model that has a lot of merit, especially when you take a look at the fact that Florin Rotar, who is the Chief AI Officer at Avanade, is someone who has approached things much like the way we’re talking about Pamela, in that she is very purposeful, very passionate, very data driven, very experimental and and inspiring. And the approach that Florin has taken in just his first 100 days not only emulates that, but has provided both the organization and their clients with a strong foundation from which to build. And at a time of change, individuals like a Florin who are really changemakers inside of an organization provide an all important grounding point and focus and energy that will deliver. I have every confidence, and so I think other organizations need to strongly consider appointing someone, much like they would a business transformation leader when they need to rethink their organizational structure.

[00:37:24.070] – Nancy Goebel

This is a time of groundbreaking change, and it’s not only affecting the workplace, but the workforce and clients as well on almost every level. And so mirroring that level of clarity and focus inside of other organizations will also provide that ripple effect around client confidence as well as their own people.

[00:37:54.750] – Paul Miller

Mm.

[00:37:55.290] – Paul Miller

Yeah. No, that’s. I mean, it really strikes me, having spoken to Pam, that AI and leadership are going to be deeply connected. And I think unlike other technology changes that we’ve seen, which really haven’t come from at a CEO level, I would say generally speaking, they’ve come sort of lower down the organization. I think the fact that this is happening at that level and is being considered at that level, I think is really important. So it’s been fantastic to have both of you on today to give us your commentary, your punditry on on my conversation with Pam. And thank you so much, Iveta. Thank you so much, Nancy.

[00:38:41.610] – Nancy Goebel

It’s such a pleasure, Paul.

[00:38:46.860] – Paul Miller

So here are my three seeds to plant based on today’s conversation. Number one, it’s pretty obvious. Appoint a Chief AI Officer. They did it at Avanade. You’re going to have to do it eventually. So grab the bull by the horns and appoint a Chief AI Officer as soon as possible. Seed number two set clear guide rails and ethics so people know where AI is going in your organization. This gives them the trust and the confidence that you’ve thought through some of the implications of AI in your organization. Seed number three, the AI-first CEO has arrived. This is an exciting and transformational change in modern leadership. Please do subscribe and like right here. So you get alerted to each new episode and I look forward to seeing you next time.